Dr. Denis Phares: 0:03

It's a rapid one step process that streamlines the entire production of lithium ion batteries and reduces cost, it reduces carbon dioxide footprint, it reduces space requirements, you know, OPEX and CAPEX. It's, it's a game changer.

Tom Raftery: 0:20

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. This is the Climate Confident podcast, the number one podcast showcasing best practices in climate emission reductions and removals. And I'm your host, Tom Raftery. Don't forget to click follow on this podcast in your podcast app of choice to be sure you don't miss any episodes. Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode 190 of the climate confident podcast. My name is Tom Raftery. And before we kick off today's show, I want to take a moment to express my gratitude to all of this podcast's amazing supporters. Your support has been instrumental in keeping the podcast going, and I'm really grateful for each and every one of you. If you're not already a supporter, I'd like to encourage you to consider joining our community of like-minded individuals who are passionate about climate. Supporting the podcast is easy and affordable with options starting as low as just three Euros or dollars a month. That's less than the cost of a cup of coffee and your support will make a huge difference in keeping this show going strong. To become a supporter. You simply click on the support link in the show notes of this or any episode, or visit. Tiny url.com/climate pod. In today's episode, I'm talking to Dr. Dennis Phares and we're talking about batteries. And in upcoming episodes, I'll be talking to Professor Valerie Thomas from Georgia Tech, Ralph Loura from sustainable it.org. Victor Meier from Glice, and David Nicholson from Mercy Corps. But back to today's episode, as I said, I'm talking to. Dennis Phares. Dennis, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Dr. Denis Phares: 2:01

Sure. My name is Denis Phares and I am the founder and chief executive officer of Dragonfly Energy.

Tom Raftery: 2:07

Okay. And Denis, what is Dragonfly Energy?

Dr. Denis Phares: 2:12

Well, I'm glad you asked, Tom. Dragonfly

Tom Raftery: 2:14

It would have been a very short podcast if I didn't.

Dr. Denis Phares: 2:17

That's right. We're done. Okay. Good to go. No, we are a, we're a battery company. We specialize in lithium ion batteries. And I like to say that we are a comprehensive technology company. So we do everything from R& D at the fundamental chemistry level, developing manufacturing processes to streamline the production of lithium ion batteries, especially domestically in the United States. We make battery packs. We have a very popular brand called Battle Born Batteries. We sell these packs and systems in the marine space, in the RV space. We're building out some new downstream verticals in oil and gas and in heavy duty trucking. The mission is actually to enhance renewable energy to mitigate greenhouse gases like methane and ultimately we are a combined technology sales and marketing company. So it's pretty unique. And we are looking to to grow and become a big player in the storage market as it becomes more and more important throughout the century.

Tom Raftery: 3:23

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a market that is going to grow enormously in the next few decades, but before we get to that, give me a little bit about the origin story of Dragonfly Energy and where did the name come from?

Dr. Denis Phares: 3:37

Well, well, the name's easy because I was brainstorming names with my with my wife and kids and my wife came up with that one. And it seemed like a great name. You know, it was available. Dragonfly Energy suggests efficiency. Dragonflies are very efficient creatures. They've been around for a very, very long time reflecting the longevity of lithium ion batteries. So I thought it was a perfect name. And as for the, the origin my background is technical, so I, I have a PhD from Caltech. I went and I did a postdoc. I became a, a professor. I taught engineering first at Texas A&M, and then at at USC I got tenure and I've kind of well, on the way to a you know, wonderful career as in academics and I kind of got a bug, I guess, during that whole process and decided that the best way for me to make a more rapid impact, particularly on issues focused on climate change, was, was to do so through entrepreneurship. And my background was studying small particles, particularly small particles in the atmosphere, how they affect health and climate, and eventually made my way around to producing small particles, very small, ultrafine or even nanoparticles, making devices out of them, like dye sensitized solar cells or fuel cells, ultimately made my way around to lithium ion batteries. And I started looking at ways to put particles on a surface in a very efficient manner. This was, you know, well over a decade ago. And if you know what the inside of the lithium ion battery looks like, the anode and the cathode is basically micro or even nanoparticle films on a foil surface. And so when I started working on these what are called dry electrode methods I became very excited about it. I left my job in academia in Southern California moved up to Reno specifically to start a lithium ion battery company because this was back in 2012 and I was pretty familiar with the distribution of lithium in the United States and I knew Nevada was going to be a big player. I got an MBA at the local university, launched the company and here we are a decade later.

Tom Raftery: 5:55

Okay. Now, you mentioned using, well, you mentioned dry lithium ion batteries. I'm phrasing it terribly because I am not completely au fait with it, but I know, for example, from watching Elon Musk's famous battery day back in September, I think it was 22. that he talked about they were coming up with a process for dry manufacturing lithium ion batteries for their 4680 cells, which I still, which I think they still haven't managed to do in volume. So explain for people who are listening, who might not be familiar, the difference between manufacturing them dry as opposed to wet, which is the standard today, what the advantages of dry versus wet are.

Dr. Denis Phares: 6:45

So the dry electrode process basically it means specifically you're eliminating the solvent in the process. And typically the way you put particles on a surface in the industry now is you take the particles, whether they're graphite anode particles, or let's say NMC or or LFP cathode particles. You mix them with the electrical conductor, the carbon you put in a binder, a polymer typically and you dissolve the polymer in a solvent, you make a paste and then you, or a slurry, and then you paste that slurry on the foil and then you have to evaporate that solvent from the film. And that evaporation process has been perfected over decades, but it is it's a long process. It's energy intensive. And the, the solvents, themselves tend to be toxic and expensive. So they need to be reclaimed. So in the dry process, you're basically putting the particles on the surface without that solvent. What Elon Musk and Tesla did was they focused on a process that was developed by a advanced capacitor company called Maxwell. And they ended up acquiring Maxwell in 2019, I think it was. And what Maxwell did to address the issue is, they used an extrusion process where they mix they mix the particles with a, a type of polymer that can kind of stretch out and, and when you, when you shear it together, it kind of bonds all the particles together and they get a freestanding anode or cathode film that they can then laminate on the foil. So that's their process. What our process is, it's, it's actually very different. We we pre treat the particles so we can pre in pre encapsulate them in the binder and it could be any binder. We are binder and chemistry agnostic and then we use an electrostatic powder coating process whereby we take a relatively conventional electrostatic powder coating gun and that gun makes a corona. The ions in the air attach to the particles, they charge the particles. They're driven to a substrate that is close to ground. That substrate is actually heated. So, conventionally in powder coating, you don't have to heat the substrate because you get electrostatic attraction between the particles and the, and the foil. In our case, you don't cause it's electrically conductive. The particles stick and they get pressed into a film. It's a, it's a rapid one step process that streamlines the entire production of lithium ion batteries and reduces cost. It reduces carbon dioxide footprint, it reduces space requirements, you know, OPEX and CAPEX. It's, it's a game changer.

Tom Raftery: 9:29

Okay, because famously when people talk about, for example, EVs, they talk about the high carbon footprint of manufacturing the EVs, the vast majority of that being in the batteries themselves. So you're saying batteries made using your process wouldn't suffer that kind of initial carbon footprint of the manufacture of the, of the batteries.

Dr. Denis Phares: 9:53

It reduces the carbon footprint. So, you know, there's, if you look at the entire process from mining all the way to producing the packs, obviously there's going to be a carbon footprint.

Tom Raftery: 10:02

Sure.

Dr. Denis Phares: 10:03

you know, the goal here is to ensure that over the lifetime of the storage combined with renewable energy, you, you actually pay that back.

Tom Raftery: 10:12

Nice, nice. And it's, you also said chemistry agnostic, so it could be lithium ion, as in lithium iron, or NMC, or whatever other chemistry that's in there.

Dr. Denis Phares: 10:26

That's correct. Yeah. The process itself can be applied to any conductive powder, but we've, we've applied it to a variety of, of cathode chemistries, including LFP and NMC and LCO and, graphite and Silicon on the anode. So it's, it's a very versatile process.

Tom Raftery: 10:45

Nice, and where are you in terms of, the rollout of batteries manufactured using this process now because you have been manufacturing batteries for some time, but if I remember correctly from the intro call, you're moving from an older process to this now new process, or did I misunderstand?

Dr. Denis Phares: 11:06

Well, kind of, we we've been, We've, we've been assembling battery packs for years. You know, we started doing this a decade ago. And if you look at the, domestically here in the United States, the landscape of lithium ion batteries in 2012, 2013, 2014, it was not pretty. There were lithium ion battery companies going out of business, going bankrupt. So when I was just coming out on the scene, I didn't garner a lot of interest when it came to investment into not just batteries, but manufacturing of batteries, you know. So it's, it's something that certainly has gained more popularity lately, but at the time there was zero interest. So

Tom Raftery: 11:51

people saying, why aren't you doing it in China?

Dr. Denis Phares: 11:54

of course, why don't you do it in China? And, and actually we got a lot of interest from China and, but the whole point was, well, let's see if we can, we can deploy this domestically. I thought I'd get a lot more interest. So what I did rather than, you know, going and trying to set up manufacturing in China was getting cells, LFP cells from China, bringing them here, designing and assembling all the packs from our designs, our components and then putting them out on the market as an American design and assembled battery pack. We called it Battle Born Batteries named after the Battle Born state of Nevada. And that's what we do. That's what we did. So that business took off really fast. And we use the profits to basically drive the, manufacturing innovations that we were doing and we ended up demonstrating that we can not only make basically any type of conventional lithium ion battery, but we were also able to powder coat composite solid electrolytes in the battery as well. So we can apply the process to make a solid state battery. It's, it's, the process is uniquely capable of making batteries with a solid electrolyte. But anyway, when it came time to actually deploy this technology, you need more money than what we could skim off the top from our Battle Born batteries business. So ended up taking the company public. And that process, although we successfully got public through a SPAC merger in late 2022 the markets weren't exactly, you know, cooperative at the time. So we didn't get the capital that we needed to really roll out the technology that we wanted, but, it has allowed us to gain access to the capital markets and we are poised to deploy the technology. And now that it's becoming more and more interesting to folks, governments are starting to look at this and say, Hey, I think we need to look, look at, at, you know, innovations here to see how we can compete on the world stage. So I would say that we are in a very, very good position now as a public company with patented innovative technology and getting the interest of downstream customers and governments as well.

Tom Raftery: 14:09

Okay, now the, the Battleborn batteries that you were manufacturing to date they've been kind of, as you mentioned, for RVs and things like that. So it's for, it's not the same kind of use case that you're thinking about for moving forward if I understand correctly. So the kind of use case, I'm guessing that you're looking at what the, the new technology and the new batteries is going to be, you mentioned for assisting renewables. So maybe selling to utilities to shore up the grid in times of you know, when a cloud goes over the sun or overnight or whatever it is, or for EVs, you mentioned trucks as well. So, talk to me a little bit about where you see the big market for the new batteries that you will start producing using this new technology.

Dr. Denis Phares: 14:56

First of all, let me address the use case. It's exactly the use case when you think about it. An RV is a little house, you know? So what we're doing for RVs is we're facilitating the consumer to basically park the RV and live off of solar panels and the batteries, which is exactly what we want the whole grid to look like ultimately. So the, the, the batteries themselves, what, where we are headed, where we see a world where the grid is full of distributed energy production and distributed storage. And that really allows for a truly smart grid that efficiently moves electrons to where they need to go. Batteries play a huge role in that. So, If RVs are a little, you know, microcosm of that vision, we've been expanding from there. So when I talked about heavy duty trucking, I'm not trying to electrify the truck today. That's going to happen, you know, in the future, but we're, we're, we're moving incrementally. We're looking at revenue that we can grow into today. And with heavy duty trucking, you're looking at things like when a trucker pulls over for the night. They still have to run their air conditioners. They still have to run their electronics inside the cab, their CPAP machines when they're sleeping, whatever. And typically what they do is they'll idle the truck. That is actually a pretty large cost in diesel fuel and an increased carbon footprint. So what we're doing is we're providing the system where as they're driving down the road, The storage system will charge from the alternator and then they can turn off the truck and basically live all night in the truck without having to idle. It's, it's a real luxury in an RV to be able to do that, but for a fleet, there's an ROI associated with it. And very rapidly, that upfront cost gets paid off because they don't have to burn diesel fuel and the wear and tear associated with the idling. And I also mentioned oil and gas we're growing into. One of the, one of the, most significant developments in this area is the desire by the American government to limit methane leakage from gas lines. So natural gas has actually played a large role in reducing our carbon footprint while not sacrificing our way of life. But at the same time, methane itself is a significant greenhouse gas. As you know, it's worse than carbon dioxide. So what we're doing is providing the storage system that will provide the energy to basically suck in the methane, provide vapor recovery, even when the compressors are not operating so that you will never have leakage of methane into the atmosphere, which is now mandated by the EPA. The EPA is now mandated to find methane leakers, and so we are actually again an ROI from a regulatory point of view in the in the oil and gas industry.

Tom Raftery: 18:11

Okay. And you mentioned you moved to Nevada because there's a lot of lithium there. Talk to me a little bit about that because, A, I was unaware of that. So I'd like to know a little more about it. But B, is it that important to be that close to the source of the lithium?

Dr. Denis Phares: 18:32

So first of all, yes, Nevada has large lithium deposits. In fact, the, the only active lithium mine in the United States is still the mine down in Silver Peak in Western Nevada, which is now operated by Albemarle. In terms of deposits, there are huge deposits throughout the state. One of the biggest deposits has been identified up close to the Oregon border in what's called the McDermott Caldera. There are large deposits in the vicinity of Silver Peak, what's called the Rhyolite Ridge. One company in particular called Ioneer has rolled out a process where they can extract the lithium as lithium carbonate in a cost efficient manner. And we actually have offtake from Ioneer as we move forward to be able to take that lithium and refine it and produce cathode materials from it. So your next question, is it important to be close to the source? Well, certainly it is more efficient to be close to the source. But more importantly when you think of it from a political standpoint, Nevada has the resource. There is a strong desire by the government, the state government, in Nevada to keep the lithium here, process it here, to gain more access to more of the supply chain. So obviously, if we have the resource, we want to reap the benefits for the resource here. So the, the state itself has established an initiative, a variety of initiatives centered around what they are calling the lithium loop. So it's not just us here, you've got the mining companies here and of course, refiners and cell manufacturers like us. But you also have recyclers here in Nevada. You've got Aqua Metals and Redwood Materials and American Battery Technology Company, among others, you know, so the, the ability to get the lithium back here, re-extract from spent cells from black mass, and then put it back in the state in cells, I think is very, very desirable to the local economy.

Tom Raftery: 20:39

Okay. How much, because I've, I've heard various figures discussed in the past. How much of the lithium that is going into batteries today is actively recycled? Because, and, I know it's challenging if you're talking about the lithium in the batteries in an EV, it's going to be a lot easier to recycle that I suspect than the lithium in kind of these little AAA batteries that I've got here that are lithium ion rechargeable batteries. I mean, the size has got to make them much easier for the EV ones and then the smaller ones. So how much lithium ion batteries today are actively recycled?

Dr. Denis Phares: 21:24

Look, I think it's safe to say virtually none. This is an industry that's in its infancy, and, you know, quite frankly, we need to set the stage today to prepare for what it's going to look like a decade from now, when you start getting a larger amount of spent lithium cells. And in terms of the ability to recycle an EV pack compared to a, you know, a small cell or maybe a, you know, consumer electronics battery. That's something where it's the process of turning all those cells into black mass, into grinding them up into one big mixture where you can extract not just the lithium, but the nickel and the cobalt and the copper and other metals that are inherent to lithium ion batteries. You know, I'm not going to pretend to know a lot about that process, but I think that they are certainly working hard to get access to any cell that is out there.

Tom Raftery: 23:31

Okay, And I mean do you see that as an industry that is going to take off? I know it's, you said it's very early days yet, but do you see the, the, the recycling as being the way forward for lithium ion batteries or you're sitting in a state that's full of lithium, why would you want to recycle?

Dr. Denis Phares: 23:52

I think it is something that needs to be developed now in order for it to be an important source of lithium a decade from now. So today, certainly, almost all of it that you get is mined. But as we move forward the mining of lithium is going to drive the growth of the industry. And then the mining plus the recycling is going to make it sustainable throughout the next century.

Tom Raftery: 24:22

Okay, cool. And if we, if we think about the global battery market, it's incredibly competitive. I mean, you have companies like CATL, Panasonic Et cetera, et cetera. I can't think of the others right now. I think Samsung are in there as well, but there's, there's a lot of them. And particularly the ones you think, bit like CATL. I mean, they were quoting figures of something like $50 per kilowatt hour at this point, you know, down from over 200 2-3 years back down from over a thousand, 10 years ago Are you going to be able to compete against companies like that?

Dr. Denis Phares: 25:03

Well, in a word, yes, I mean, they're, they're certainly this, this is the normal course of an industry as things get more and more efficient, but it highlights the need to innovate. And if you want to compete on the world stage, sure, there's a lot of competition. And sometimes, you know, governments can put their thumb on the scales and they do so through things like the IRA here in the United States or through tariffs. But ultimately there's a strong desire for domestic manufacturing. And folks will pay a premium for domestic cells. So, you know, you can't have too many cells at this point. You know, if you get lithium out of the ground and making it, making them into cells, you're going to get revenue from it. So I'm not too, too concerned about it. If you could stand up a factory, you're going to get offtake for that factory. And our ability to actually reduce the cost of the manufacturing process is going to make us extremely competitive on the world stage.

Tom Raftery: 26:00

And are you planning on keeping the technology to yourself, or licensing it to third parties, you know, to gain revenue from that, scale your income and, you know, grow that way?

Dr. Denis Phares: 26:15

Well, we'd be silly not to consider that. I mean, ultimately we want to grow as fast as we can, and we have a mission to proliferate these batteries as much as we can to make the world, you know, greener. And so if that means growth through licensing in addition to scaling our own manufacturing, then of course we're going to do that.

Tom Raftery: 26:35

Sure, sure, sure. Are you also looking at the likes of grid stability and battery storage? Because, you know, we're seeing increasing stresses on power grids worldwide, climate change is adding to that batteries are seen as a kind of a critical component for grid stability now. They wouldn't have been 10 years ago, but now, increasingly, they are. We're seeing California doing amazing things there. How do you see yourselves contributing to a more kind of reliant, and responsive grid?

Dr. Denis Phares: 27:07

You're absolutely right. I mean, honestly, that grid stability is very much our mission and it's, it's the grids are, the grid is not only stressed now, but it's going to become a lot more stressed when the the sources are intermittent like solar and wind. And as we continue to electrify transportation and the electric vehicles are plugged into the grid. So you're, you're just transitioning all that energy from fossil fuels onto the grid. So grid stability is huge. And, and I wouldn't say it's, it's batteries only. It's storage. You need storage. You need a large energy buffer on the grid and where, where our batteries will play into it is what has been termed the grid edge. So we want to see our batteries in every grid tied building. And that's why we focus not just on the lowering the levelized cost of storage, and we do that through reducing manufacturing costs through our process and focusing on long lasting battery chemistries like LFP and graphite, for example. But also focusing on the solid state composite electrolyte, which is inherently non flammable. So if you're going to deploy large storage systems in grid tied buildings, that can only be mandated by utility if it's not dangerous. If it's, you know, LFP batteries are certainly the the safest on the market. We're very comfortable with what we put out there on the market today, but they still have an, you know, an organic flammable electrolyte. And so if you're going to incorporate that into basically every grid tied building, then it behooves us to remove that issue and make it non flammable.

Tom Raftery: 28:55

Sure, sure, sure. In, kind of a left field question here, but in the movie Back to the Future, it's kind of a favourite of mine. They imagined a future with flying cars and fusion power by 2015. Obviously, we've blown through 2015. We're not there yet. But how close do you think we are to realizing a future where batteries fundamentally change our daily lives beyond even maybe what Hollywood dreamt up?

Dr. Denis Phares: 29:23

Well, it's, it's already happened. I mean, we, we have cell phones in our pockets today and, and laptops that, you know. Batteries have already changed our daily lives dramatically. The interesting thing though, moving forward, this whole vision of grid tied storage and distributed storage is that we're trying to, become more sustainable without having to change our daily lives too much. You know, we want to be able to enjoy all the fantastic things that we enjoy today in terms of developing AI and, you know, and, and technology developments that are just so much fun for, for people like us that get have the pleasure of living in, you know, now there's so much cool stuff happening now, but it is certainly at the expense of currently what we're still burning more fossil fuels and we're still putting more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. So, the only thing that where batteries are going to play is we can continue our way of life and continue to develop, but without having to pay as much of a climate change penalty. We're trying to mitigate climate change so that we can continue this way of life on to our grandkids and descendants. I mean, that's, that's the goal here. But in terms of back to the future and flying cars, I'd, I'd love to see all that develop and that'll probably be run off of fusion and not batteries, but batteries will help us get there in a sustainable fashion.

Tom Raftery: 30:53

I was reading a story this morning, on perplexity, I think it was where they talked about a Japanese university, which has developed cars, which can use maglev technology to hover a couple of inches above the surface. So you'd need maglev tracks for cars to go along and they'd be far, far more efficient, I think we're a good bit away from that happening and becoming a reality, but I, I thought, you know, I thought that was cute, reminded me of the DeLorean.

Dr. Denis Phares: 31:20

know, Yeah, I think that any sort of when you're, when you're reducing drag, when you're reducing friction, you know, that's, that's where all the energy goes right now, you know, so the maglev technology and I think that was part of what, wasn't that what Elon Musk was trying to do with the, with The Boring Company initially was having these, right, having these sort of very, yeah, yeah,

Tom Raftery: 31:43

Yeah, yeah,

Dr. Denis Phares: 31:44

frictionless batteries. Yeah. pods or trains. I mean, that's that you, that's a huge benefit in terms of energy consumption.

Tom Raftery: 31:52

Yeah, yeah. Another left field question for you. If you could have any celebrity or fictional character as a spokesperson for Dragon, Dragonfly, who would it be and why?

Dr. Denis Phares: 32:09

Any, any celebrity at any time?

Tom Raftery: 32:12

Fictional or otherwise, from any time, alive or dead.

Dr. Denis Phares: 32:17

I'd take all four Beatles. John, Paul, George, and Ringo. for They're my spokespeople for Dragonfly Energy

Tom Raftery: 32:27

Lovely.

Dr. Denis Phares: 32:27

we'll try to, we'll see if we can make that happen, at least for the, the remaining Beatles.

Tom Raftery: 32:33

With AI, it may be possible to make them all.

Dr. Denis Phares: 32:36

There you go, yeah. Probably have to get some permission from their estates, but anyway, you gave me a left field question. There's your left field

Tom Raftery: 32:44

answer love it. Love it. Love it. Love it. Looking forward, looking to the future, we have in the US and the EU and in China as well, we've all set these goals for 2030 for climate, for emissions, et cetera. So that's a little over five years from now. Where do you see Dragonfly in five years time?

Dr. Denis Phares: 33:08

I do see us at the, gigascale producing cells using our dry electrode process. Those are very aggressive goals, obviously, but it's not wrong or bad to have aggressive goals. But things have to go right. And if you just look at our story here, we thought we'd already be in cell production now. And, the markets and the world economy didn't cooperate. You know, we all suffered with high inflation and rising interest rates. And that has a very, very real effect on our ability to deploy innovation. So these are, these things are all interconnected and you have to have a healthy economy to be able to drive these green initiatives. It's not necessarily competing, but things have to line up, you know?

Tom Raftery: 33:58

Yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure. We're coming towards the end of the podcast now, Denis. Is there any question I did not ask that you wish I had or any aspect of this? We haven't touched on that. You think it's important for people to think about?

Dr. Denis Phares: 34:12

Now, I mean, I'm I'm willing to go any, anywhere you want to go with this, or I'm willing to wrap it up, but I've, I've said everything that I think is important for Dragonfly.

Tom Raftery: 34:22

Okay, perfect. Great. If people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed on the podcast today, Denis, where would you have me direct them?

Dr. Denis Phares: 34:32

You can find a lot about us on our website at at www dot dragon fly energy dot com or Battle Born Batteries dot com. If you are interested in our current products, but we do have some information about the technology that we're developing on the on the Dragonfly site. And you know, I really appreciate the ability to come on your show today and, and to talk about what we're doing. It's, great to meet you, Tom, and I love talking about this stuff.

Tom Raftery: 34:59

Thank you, Denis. And thanks a million for coming on the podcast. It's been really fascinating.

Dr. Denis Phares: 35:03

Thank you.

Tom Raftery: 35:04

Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about the Climate Confident podcast, feel free to drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please don't forget to click follow on it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.