For us to be able to solve this, we need to be able to still hold individuals and organisations accountable, but doing it in an empathetic and open way. If we're shutting doors, then the door remains shut. And we'll just continue to be in a room of those that are doing what we need them to do. And everyone else is on the outside Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to episode 211 of the Climate Confident Podcast, the go-to show for best practices in climate emission reductions and removals. I'm your host, Tom Raftery, and if you haven't already, be sure to follow this podcast in your podcast app of choice, so you never miss an episode. Before we dive in, a huge thank you to this podcast, incredible supporters. Your backing keeps the podcast going, and I truly appreciate each and every one of you. If you'd like to join our community, you can support the show for as little as three euros or dollars a month, which is less than the cost of a cup of coffee, and you just need to click the support link in the show notes of this or any episode or visit tinyurl.com/climate pod. Now in today's show, I'm delighted to welcome Jenny Morgan, where we'll be talking about cancel culture. And in the next few weeks, I'll be talking to Chris Doheryy, CEO of Joulen. We'll be talking about Energy Grids, Sandia Sabapathy, who's head of Environment and Net Zero for Entain. Faustine Delasalle, who's CEO of the Mission Possible Partnership. We'll be talking about Industrial Decarbonisation Ryan Schermerhorn, where we'll be talking about IP and climate patents. But back to today's show, and as I mentioned, my guest today is Jenny. Jenny, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself? Sure. Thank you so much for having me. My name is Jenny Morgan. I am an author of an upcoming book called Cancel Culture Climate, And, I have a history in hospitality and tech and have been in the climate and purposeful leading space. space for about five now. Okay. Doing what? So I was working in tech leading a team of developer advocates that were looking to integrate more inclusive and sustainable practices into our organization. I work for a project developer that is leading an initiative to prevent non CO2 gases from entering the atmosphere. And through that work and by being an advocate of the B Corp movement, I started to see a lot of polarization within the space and began to develop my theory on cancel culture in climate being our biggest obstacle right now. Tom, just a And how did you get into the space originally? Tom, just a bunch of scrappiness, that's's that's me. I, really proficient in bringing more accessible and inclusive practices into work. And that's where I began to establish myself in my career. And I began to see a huge gap in that because I wasn't addressing sustainability at all. And equity is built on inclusion and sustainability. It's very integrated and they depend on one another. And so when I started to somewhat see that I had a gap in that effort, I began to do some research and, sign up for courses and get certifications and things of that sort. And then I became very active in the sustainability space. We also had a few climate disasters occur near our house and that pushed my efforts even further of really feeling the sense of urgency and not wanting to be just a kind of standard in the space. I wanted to really push myself to go even further. Okay. And cancel culture. Talk to me about why you think cancel culture is so important. Well, I believe that we have the solutions we need to curb climate change. We have a pretty good idea of what we need to do and we have the resources available to be able to implement the solutions in real time. There will still be climate catastrophes that occur during this time because we'll be you know, taking on the brunt of the last 150 years or so. But at the same time, we really have an opportunity here and I see us missing that opportunity because we're prioritizing so much of our time on gotcha moments on trying to see who isn't doing enough or doing it incorrectly. We're prioritizing a lot of our ego and discourse over the actual implementation of solutions. And that's not energy well spent. We're putting it in the wrong place. Okay. And what inspired you to explore the intersection of cancel culture and climate? Well, before I even had a name for it, I experienced it when I was working in tech. I was really looking to get into the sustainability organization at a very large company. And I was kind of doing some things on my own, and I had the opportunity through just leadership support to kind of do these grassroots movements, but I was looking to become a bit more established in the sustainability space. And so I again, I referenced my scrappiness. I was able to negotiate my, me being the author of our blog posts that is going to be representing our team COP, and this was cop 26. And cop. 26 received a lot of negative feedback. We were just in the middle of the pandemic and it was a lot of empty promises, or at least that was the negative feedback that was being received and the blog post was pulled just due to fear of further exposing ourselves to negative publicity. And that was the first time I had experienced it firsthand, but I didn't really have a name for it. It was very frustrating for me. I felt like there was a lot to actually celebrate, but then out of fear, an organization made a decision to just go silent versus be proud and also admit that there's room for progress. So that fear was interesting to me. I viewed that as a problem. As I became more and more in the sustainability space, I started to see in climate fighting to being prioritized a standard example is, a nature based solution person and a direct air capture person. They often can get into arguments publicly, which makes the space look like we don't know what we're doing I started to see that as a disservice. It was making industry leaders even more fearful. So it's the cycle that continues to feed itself. And to me, it represents cancel culture, similar to very a lot of movements that we've seen this occur. Cancel culture does not have a formula. It doesn't respect nuance. It's very hungry. It's looking for its next victim. And there isn't a process in place that can actually lead towards accountability. It isn't an effective tool. And I started speaking about that more and then two years later, we've got us on a podcast together. together And how does or does fear of cancellation affect climate leaders, businesses, activists, you know, are there any examples that have stood out to you? Yeah. So I talked about the symptoms of cancel culture in the space. And there's three basic ones that kind of put everyone in a bucket. There's green washing, which is when you're accused of lying, or maybe you have lied, but it's an accusation of lying about your true impact. And then there's green hushing, which is when an organization has gone silent, whether that means that they've gone silent about something good that they've done or silent because they didn't do enough as they promised. They didn't meet those expectations, either way it's silence. And then there's this new symptom that's starting to reveal itself as this green recanting, which is organisations that are simply just deleting their commitments entirely, simply because they're not really seeing that return on their investment anymore due to heightened scrutiny, out from the public. And so this is continuing to fuel itself and it leaves us stuck. We can't progress in any way if we're constantly operating in this state of fear and silence. And a lot of industry leaders that can fund a significant amount of progress are operating in this state of fear because we've put them in a box. Where can they go from here? If perfection is the goal, there's no way that they can move forward. So they might as well just stop playing the game. And that's the last thing that we need to happen. The alternative being? Empathetic communication. For us to be able to solve this, we need to be able to still hold individuals and organisations accountable, but doing it in an empathetic and open way. If we're shutting doors, then the door remains shut. And we'll just continue to be in a room of those that are doing what we need them to do. And everyone else is on the outside. We need to move the masses and to be able to do that, we have to be willing to have open conversations where it might feel uncomfortable. We might feel frustrated, but if we can get through that and see one another as equals, we can actually progress together. Okay. And what role does social media play in fueling polarisation and climate discourse? You know, can it be of the solution as well? It is definitely an opportunity for people and organisations to create excitement and positivity. I do think that we as consumers of media have to be more responsible in the way that we engage, and I don't believe we're there yet. So for example, a headline comes up and says. XYZ company falsified their climate commitments. They've been lying for two years and everyone knew. And that's the headline. And so as a consumer, I'm getting messages like this all the time. And so I'm just simply reading those headlines. And what I'm reacting to is that I now want to ban that company and anyone affiliated with it from ever participating in climate action again. They've lost their credibility with me and I no longer respect them. I haven't done my due diligence to read the article. I haven't done my due diligence to really understand the motivations that might be behind that article. And if I'm attacking an entity versus attacking an idea, I've now shut that door for progress. So what you could read that headline as, if I was a more empathetic consumer of media, And I'm trying to put that practice into place on a daily basis. I see that headline. Even if you don't have time to read that article, that's perfectly fine. But what you should be frustrated by is that you don't like falsifying information. You are against anyone lying about their impact. That is what you should stop. That's where you stop when you engage with that, because if you're not able to do the due diligence into really establishing and formulating an opinion based on fact, then we shouldn't be ostracizing organisations and individuals from the conversation just based on clickbait media. And so I do think it is an opportunity for us to progress together. I also think we have to take our own individual responsibility on how we engage with it. And you advocate for, as you said already, accountable, empathetic leadership in the climate space. What does that look like in practice? I mean, is there anyone who's doing this right, right now? Well, there are some, you know, really ambitious organisations that are continuously pushing themselves. I mean, Patagonia is a very easy example of an organization that is still viewing itself as a work in progress. And that's very admirable. That shows that it isn't perfection that we're striving for. That there's always room for growth. And I really commend them as an organization because you could essentially argue that they could stop now. They've done a fantastic job proving that there's purposeful and profitable business model that works, that's empathetic to their community and to their stakeholders and is still successful in their industry. But they're still looking for that opportunity for progress. And so they're definitely a golden star, in my opinion, because they've proven that it isn't about perfection. It's about moving forward. I also really respect organisations that are admitting that they have Floss. I talk about Starbucks, how they're talking about how they're having a lot of challenges with their supply chain, and they've actually reached out to the public to submit feedback on ways that they could potentially improve. So you're being, you're admitting that you're flawed, because that then gives us a gap to be able to innovate and work together. It also instills that feeling of empathy and I really commend them as well for, you know, being very open in the challenges that they've experienced and are looking to engage others. So, those are a few that come to mind. There's a few airlines that have admitted that they won't be able to achieve their goals because of the delays and sustainable aviation fuel. And I celebrate that, that they're calling out to the industry for additional support and showing ways that they're going to continue to fill the gap as. we are trying to progress and innovate together and being really honest about that and not giving up, but being transparent in the challenges is what makes mobilize. And I think that that is a perfect representation of accountability. What about companies or individuals who've made missteps? You know, how do they regain trust without fear of being canceled? Yeah. So really what it comes down to is getting back to the basics. So if you're fearful of being cancelled or you've been cancelled, first thing you need to do is have a internal conversation with internal stakeholders on what and What's our goal? And where are we going to go from here? A lot of times that type of dialogue doesn't even occur. It's usually on the desk of a few individuals that have taken heat, a PR agency or a marketing firm might take ownership of that and try to deal with it on a publicity basis or a legal basis, but really what should be happening is a conversation and dialogue first and foremost. Then once you've established that, you can then outline clear goals that you can put into place that you're looking to achieve. Without that clarity we don't really know what we're striving for. And these goals can still be ambitious, but they should be clear, concise and measurable. And then you start to implement those goals. Another, gap is that organisations are not always bringing in a third party. And that's a requirement if you're going to be claiming that you're doing something, bring in a third party agency that can actually measure, provide feedback. Again, this is kind of moving this sense of openness and transparency out into the world and making all of this public and showing that progress, not only will you be more successful, it will reduce the chance of being criticized in a detrimental way, but then also, people are going to start following what you did. You look at Allbirds, for example, Crocs sent out a message that they were going to have to extend their net zero goals due to the fact that they were having a lot of challenges with, achieving their goal. And All birds stepped right up, shared everything that they traditionally would be viewed as secret sauce notes that you wouldn't share with a competitor. And now they're being open with what they did to make a carbon neutral shoe, not utilizing offsets at all. They actually created a carbon neutral shoe and shared it with a quote unquote competitor. And Allbirds leaders were quoted saying that are now viewing themselves as a participant of industry progress. They're not viewing themselves as they've figured it out, therefore, they will be more profitable. They see that all ships rise when the tide rises. You know, that's it's showing that in business and they're actually going to be more profitable and successful based on that. Okay do you have any examples where fostering dialogue over division has led to meaningful climate progress? And if so, what can we learn from that? Yeah, I. I think first and foremost, reframing our thinking leads to a lot of progress. And I'll start with the individual. When you reframe your thinking that you're in opposition of others, if you actually reframe your thinking to see every interaction as an opportunity for change as an individual, the stamina, energy level, and overall peace, improves drastically and immediately when you're hearing from someone that, I'll use a personal example where I was in a conversation with someone talking about this book, and they said that they didn't really believe in climate change, which I'm so much in a bubble that those kind of conversations don't really come up as often as I, I would, as maybe it would for others. And, instead of me being shocked or disgusted or some sort of negative emotional reaction to that comment, I it as an, opportunity to kind of explore, Tell me a bit more about that. You know, that's where I'm coming to this conversation with curiosity. If I then after learning kind of what their reservations were, it wasn't really about the denial of scientific is more a pushback on them, not really feeling engaged in a societal conversation. That's a human, human challenge there that they feel isolated from this new liberal agenda was kind of the, the verbiage that was used. So what I did is I switched global warming with pollution and that really opened up the conversation to being able to speak with one another. No one likes pollution. Even if they're participating in it and creating it, they don't like that. And so everyone wants to be able to live at a house that is safe and be able to enjoy their hobbies. That is across the board, no matter how you vote or how you act, you want a safe and thriving home. We all approach that goal differently, but if you could kind of come back to the basics and reframe your thinking, that opens up so much more peace internally. And for me, I've been able to be much more effective in my conversations. And then if organisations then embody that type of mentality, too, they're actually coming to their work with openness curiosity so that they can continue to innovate. Innovation happens with feedback with growth with iterating and learning from mistakes and opportunities. And so, you're you can see a lot of organisations that are willing to have a conversation with respect. They can actually grow substantially and be able to really achieve the goals that they're looking to achieve. Okay. And what would be then some tools or strategies for people to use to communicate collaboratively and inspire action? So in the book, I go into steps that you can take. If you want to get into a motivational conversation. It can often be deemed motivational interviewing, but I like to call it a conversation because it should be a two way street, but if you can get into a motivational conversation, meaning that you actively listen, you hear each other, you're not just simply coming to a conversation to be right. If our goal is to be right, then a lot of us are doing a great job at that. But I don't believe that that's our goal. Our goal is to actually be effective in curbing climate change. And so, if you come to a conversation with respect and willingness to listen. Then you can actually get down to the ground level of what is important to whomever you're speaking with. And then what you do is ask probing questions. You can say, you know, what does that mean to you? How could climate change disrupt that goal that you've articulated to me? And if you really associate it back to things that are important, power, growth, stability, nature, outdoor activities, their grandchildren, whatever they've articulated as being important to them. It can be reattached to sustainability. And so if you're able to do that, then you start to change the conversation of, I'm not talking about a, in a, an impressive mandate that I'm trying to put on to you, I'm talking about protecting those things that you just said that you love. And, so now you're establishing common ground and then you can navigate a way forward. So being able to go through those steps, continue to asking, ask yourself, am I coming from a place of openness? Am I criticising an entity or an idea? Can I effectively articulate the other person's point of view in a non mocking kind of way? Then you're able to really level set if you're doing the work and communicating effectively to really engage versus isolate. Okay, nice. And you've said that right now we're fighting in climate when we need to be fighting for climate. What's, what's one key step every listener could take today to change that dynamic? I mean, you could take an improv class because that is exactly what we should be doing in climate. It is not either or it's and so. If you are speaking to someone that is essentially like minded as you, so you're both in climate, it's fantastic that they are working on a solution that is not yours, because that means that more people are working towards progress. And that will further support what you are doing. And so we should be celebrating one another, if there is someone that is on your team, you should be cheering them on. They are not your competitor. And that is really challenging to do in a time of urgency and stress. So continuously ask yourself, am I being an advocate for climate solutions, or am I trying to monopolise the conversation? In the book, I talk about the debate over the electrification of vehicles. I was privy to a public debate between 3 individuals. 1, you know, saying that it was the solution to everything and reducing decarbonising transportation and then 1 that was criticising, you know, how it is very, it's basically an industry that's based on somewhat of a slavery mindset. It can, you know, very much so put marginalized communities in unintended pollution and unintended stress. And then another entity was arguing that none of this is a solution. It's public transport and everyone was arguing with one another. And all of us that were watching this conversation left feeling bad. No one felt empowered to research public transportation in my area. What are upcoming policies and bills that are being proposed that I could potentially look for? What is a EV manufacturer that's actually doing ethical mining practices? No one was really feeling empowered to do that due diligence. Everyone just felt guilty for whatever was attached to them. And so check yourself if you're engaging in a conversation that is leading to a debate. Level set and take a breath and really think, am I moving the needle towards climate action? Or am I looking to beat this individual in facts and details? Okay. If cancel culture in the climate movement ended tomorrow, what do you think the world would look like five years from now? Oh, wow. I see people waving to their neighbors and you know, really everyone is composting. Yeah, I, think that we would be very powerful. We would still be struggling because there will be repercussions of our actions and, you know, innovating from a technological standpoint. But at the same time, there would be support of one another, which is power. Power in numbers is very effective. And I think that we would also see climate action holistically. It wouldn't be, you know, this is biochar. This is methane, this is conservation work. You know, we wouldn't see it as these silos. We'd actually see how they, support and affect one another. And, we would be so much more effective that way. And what gives you the most hope right now for creating a united and impactful climate movement? I think people know that this is a problem. And anytime I talk about this, most people nod. And it's really just being able to apply tools and tactics to be able to overcome it and be a better communicator and steward for climate action. The fact that I'm not having to, or anyone else that's speaking about this publicly having to, invent this new theory and hypothesis. We, we all are experiencing it in some way. We might just not be articulating it. And so that is something that gives me hope because if everyone's already somewhat on board that this is a problem, that we're not united. Everyone can kind of admit to that, no matter where they are in the spectrum. We're not showing a society of unity. And so, now that we all know that, I'm hopeful that people will be more open and organisations will be more open to addressing it because we all have admitted that it's a problem. Okay. If you could offer advice to anyone feeling hesitant about stepping into climate leadership for fear of backlash, what would that be? Well, first I want to just applaud anyone that's taking steps towards something that's positive. That's huge. And not a lot of people take that type of risk and step. So I think here we would be celebratory of those that are, putting themselves in a, place that represents their values. And so that's very admirable. What I would say is lean on others. You're not alone. A lot of us feel very alone in our work or alone in our experience, but this is an experience that many are going through. And there's so many groups and resources available that can support you. Reach out to your most ideal sustainability leader. What are they doing? There's Open Door Climate on linkedin. I mean, that's a great opportunity for you to see a plethora of individuals that have outwardly said, I'm open to conversations and, there's ways that we can learn from each other. A lot of individuals within the sustainability space are, I would say the majority, but maybe I'm a bit biased, but from my experience, many are very open to talking about their struggles, what they've learned. Being able to skip over those a bit quicker, just so that they can show what they've learned and show what it means to be successful. There's Slack groups, there's, you know, meetups in your local area. Those are all available that, you know, you can be humble and vulnerable and saying, I'm feeling a bit nervous, but I really want to change things. There's many that will step up to support you. Okay, great. Are there any books, films, or documentaries that you found particularly inspiring when thinking about sustainability or leadership? All We Can Save is a fantastic book. It's a book of essays that are compiled together to really show a sense of hope. And I would recommend that. There's plenty of documentaries about cancel culture in general, which just somewhat proves that it's ineffective. So if you're continuously tempted by that type of medium, there's many examples out there that can show that it is ineffective in the climate movement or other movements. I would say, I mean, I love Project Draw Down and anything that Project Draw Down is doing. They're very much so in touch with what solutions are effective and who's doing what and how to really pull the brake on climate change. Catherine Hogue. She has a Ted talk that is incredible. She talks about how she has put herself in situations that you would typically deem as threatening and have really come to those conversations with empathy and has been successful in that. Believe she stepped into a room of oil and gas executives and you really was able to have a conversation about growth and climate action that was successful because she came to it with a sense of openness. So those are some that I rattle off the top of my head. Nice, We're coming towards the end of the podcast. Now, Jenny, is there any question I didn't ask that you wish I did or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to think about? I think that we all need to recognise that there is a path forward. We simply have to put more fuel into that path. The only way that we can do that is by engaging others. And so if we can admit that, then I think we can really move the needle and be the generation that prevents further catastrophe from occurring, and that's really exciting to be a part of something that's so powerful. So I think the only thing we didn't really touch on is the, maybe the pressure that individuals might feel. We touched on sustainability leaders, you know, feeling that pressure of public scrutiny and being deemed not good enough in their actions. But I also want to encourage people to find ways to stay engaged and don't disappear under the pressure of it. Reach out, share how you're feeling, be empathetic with others, help another person that's dealing with something like this. That can really help empower you to be successful in these conversations. And so, I know it's a lot to ask, but it's necessary and we really don't have any other options. So I encourage people to reach out to their communities and find that stability to able to go out and have some uncomfortable conversations. Okay, great. If people would like to know more about yourself, Jenny, or any of the things we talked about in the podcast today, where would you have me direct them? Yeah, so if you want to learn more about the book or any of the topics that have been covered, you can go to cancel culture in climate dot com. There will be links to be able to purchase the book and also just talk about this. I think that that's again very important. I'm also on linked in and consistently sharing resources there. So you can find me, Jenny Morgan slash Jenny C Morgan on LinkedIn. And I really want to hear how people are handling this and what people are challenged by and some success stories and, you know, really creating a movement of climate communication. I think we have the power to do that. So we should start doing that now. Nice. Great. Jenny, that's been really interesting. Thanks a million for coming to the podcast today. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about the Climate Confident podcast, feel free to drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please don't forget to click follow on it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.