Sandhya Sabapathy: 0:03

I was just speaking to some of my peers in, in Ikea and they've decreased their carbon emissions by about 24% over the past five years, but their revenue has also gone up by about 30% in the same period of time.

Tom Raftery: 0:19

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, where everywhere in the world. Welcome to episode 213 of the Climate Confident Podcast, the go-to show for best practices in climate emission reductions and removals. I'm your host, Tom Raftery, and if you haven't already, be sure to follow this podcast in your podcast app of choice so you never miss an episode. Before we dive in, a huge thank you to our incredible supporters. Your backing keeps this podcast going and I truly appreciate each and every one of you. If you'd like to join our community, you can support the show for as little as three euros or dollars, which is less than the cost of a cup of coffee. You just need to click the support link in the show notes of this or any episode or visit tinyurl.com/climate pod. Now in today's show, I'm delighted to be talking to Sandhya, and in the coming weeks I'll be speaking to Faustine Delasalle, who's the CEO of the Mission Possible Partnership. Ryan Shermerhorn, who is a lawyer, and we'll be talking climate patents. Alexei Beltyukov, co-founder of United Fuel Technologies, and Avi Greenstein, CEO of Bamboozle. But as I said, my special guest today is Sandhya Sandhya. Welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Sandhya Sabapathy: 1:41

Thank you so much for having me. So I'm Sandhya Sabapathy I am the Global Head of Environment and Net Zero at Entain, which is a FTSE hundred sports gaming company. And I've worked in sustainability for the past 10 years in multiple different large organisations, as well as in the public sector, mainly on ESG investing and community wealth redistribution. And I love your podcast, Tom. So thank you so much for having me.

Tom Raftery: 2:08

Thank you for saying so. Tell me a little bit about your journey into s the sustainability world, Sandhya.

Sandhya Sabapathy: 2:14

I always like telling the story because I think everyone has a very different experience of getting into sustainability. I think a lot of people fall into it. A lot of people have maybe a life-changing moment and they choose this to be their vocation. I've always been an activist from high school, university. And I actually started in in life sciences. So I did pre-med. So there was always kind of a purpose of I wanted to help people, help the planet. But I maybe didn't know the right mechanism to do so. And when I joined corporate and I was in the marketing and public policy side I started taking part. And a lot of the corporate initiatives that they had whether it was volunteering for a triathlon, whether it was helping out people with skill-based volunteering, et cetera. And I, I noticed that even outside of work, this was something that I was doing a lot. I also am quite active on social media. So I think a a light bulb moment went off and I said, why don't I do a little bit more school into this and see if I can actually do this full time. And that's exactly what I did. And I totally recommend it. I get to be the best version of myself every single day. And even though it's, a field that does require resilience I think it's worth it in the end. So that's, that's how I got into it. And, and I think it's going to be a a lifelong journey.

Tom Raftery: 3:41

Great. Fantastic. And what's surprised you most on your journey so far?

Sandhya Sabapathy: 3:46

I think what surprised me the most is that you hear a lot of negativity around people who want to create change. And when I mean negativity, I mean, always incredibly difficult. You work crazy long hours. As well as, you are always fighting against the system. But what I've found that's probably also some of the most exciting elements of working in this field, you meet amazing people, you meet people who actually have a life purpose, who are working towards something that's greater than just their kind of immediate day-to-day lives. And the resilience bit in hindsight for me is, something that gives me confidence. Because I am now in this field as a result of people doing work for decades and decades. That's allowed me to get to this point. And hopefully I can push the dial a small amount myself and then inspire the future generations to do so as well. So, I think that there's a lot of apprehension around people who work in this space. And I think that the most surprising element of this is that it's what gets me outta bed every morning and people need to kinda focus on the positives.

Tom Raftery: 5:02

Indeed. And how easy is that focusing on the positives? Because a lot of times it feels like it's going in reverse rather than going, as far forward as we'd like it to as fast as we'd like it to.

Sandhya Sabapathy: 5:18

One of the things that probably I've learned over the past couple of years is that this is a marathon, not a race. And when I'm talking to younger people who want to get into this space and maybe do a bit of volunteering in their free time, and they just feel a bit stuck, whether it's something they can afford to do full time, is that the first thing you should probably get right is understanding the balance within yourself. And being quite self-aware when it comes to your mental health and your physical health. So before you take care of the planet's health or everyone else's health, that should be the first thing that you get right and build that support system around you. And for me, what works is journaling and reading and painting. So finding, those spaces that allow you to have an outlet. Honestly, the the last climate of the British cop was super stressful, I think for most people involved, especially for people in the climate space. But you have to keep fighting, right? You have to kind of keep in it and keep the dial going regardless of which area in the climate space you operate in. And what I did right after was to honestly not talk to anyone for a couple of days, focus on myself, and do things that bring me joy. And then the Monday after, the fight begins again. So I think there is a lot of self-awareness that's also quite important in, in doing all of this. Because you can get quite caught up in this purpose-driven mission that you are behind. Yeah, so that's probably the thing that I wish I knew about when I was a bit, when I was younger. And I, and I would advise because burning out isn't also helping your cause.

Tom Raftery: 7:03

And we're seeing sustainability now shifting. It used to be a buzzword used to be, part of the marketing department very often, but it's now more frequently part of the boardroom strategy. So a), do you, do you agree with that? And b), if so, what do you think made that change?

Sandhya Sabapathy: 7:25

I totally agree with it. I think that this is a result of, I would say a lot of corporate sustainability professionals over the past decade pushing for it. And, there are a couple of reasons why I think that's the case. First it's no longer just a marketing branding exercise, and there is very clear commercial proof that, there s a business case for this. I was just speaking to some of my peers in, in Ikea and they've decreased their carbon emissions by about 24% over the past five years, but their revenue has also gone up by about 30% in the same period of time. And, and there are many other case studies similar to this. And the reason why I think is because if a company focuses on sustainability, especially if there is a very top down approach and the board, as well as the executive committees are part of the value creation or the strategising. From an investor standpoint, that kind of showcases that you are thinking about the future of the company or thinking about long-term value creation, and it's not just this annual exercise of, okay, how are you doing Q1, Q2. So I think, so that signals a good sign. And and then the other element of sustainability is that sustainability is fundamentally collaborative. So, it encourages different departments to work together. It encourages the company to look beyond itself, whether it's the suppliers, whether it's the community it operates in, its consumers, et cetera. So, indirectly, sustainability builds resilience. And I also really like viewing sustainability, especially the climate side with a risk-based approach. And I think that a lot of companies have gotten this right at the start. So quantifying climate risks in whatever sector that they operate in and tying that to revenue, tying that to tangible things, that investors as well as the board can relate to in the context of functioning of the company, which then in turn makes it easier for them to, in the future, convert that risk into opportunity if their competitors haven't thought about it that way. So, I think the business case is there. Which took a long time to build.

Tom Raftery: 9:47

Yeah. Yeah.

Sandhya Sabapathy: 9:48

It's quite, it's quite good to see that the business case is there. However, what I will say is that I think we're just at the turning point, right? We're just at the turning point and we're seeing green shoots with some large successful stories that companies are getting right. I don't personally think that we have managed to convert the average investor or the average boardroom member yet. I still think that there is a lot of corporate activism. So people who are bought in on this, who have seen this work and as a result, it's trickling through. So my hope, is that with all of the sustainability directives that are coming in EU, so the corporate one that's coming in EU. The shift with sustainability reporting has now moved from voluntary to mandatory for large companies. And it will start becoming mandatory for smaller companies too going forward, especially if they operate in the EU. And I think it's, it's the starting point for organisations, firstly, who have gotten it right to get bit of credit and get a bit of real comparison against their peers. Then for the other companies to actually catch up. And what I also think this is gonna be really good for is that companies since sustainability has, been a buzzword for a while, tend to only report and talk about things that they're doing well, not about things that they're not doing well or not getting right. And I think this is going to start getting companies to be a bit more honest about that and hopefully encourage a transparent dialogue. As opposed to just getting, you know, the constant canceling approach, which I personally don't think is necessarily as effective as, as bringing people around the table and having a conversation. One other thing maybe I'd add is that this is going to result in a lot of companies actually dropping bits and elements of their sustainability targets. And I think this is big point of conversation that I have with a lot of my peers being like, well, you're a sustainability professional. We need to be as ambitious as possible. We need to push the dial. We need to push, but I actually think I'd much rather have companies be transparent about what they're doing and what they're getting right and how they're going to improve rather than have these top line ambitious targets that don't really make sense in the grand scheme of things. And it's it's just for media buzz. So, my hope, I guess, to summarise, is that I'm happy that it's, gotten to the boardrooms. I'm happy that we're actually having a much more top down approach. However I still don't think it's, what I'd call mainstream yet, like it's, it's something that everyone almost has to do. It's part and parcel of business strategy, like marketing or HR, et cetera. So I still think there's a lot of work to be done there.

Tom Raftery: 12:49

Right. I, I don't disagree. Two quick observations, I would say in terms of the business case for it, I think as well, it could be argued that it lowers the cost of customer acquisition and retention.

Sandhya Sabapathy: 13:04

Mm-hmm.

Tom Raftery: 13:04

Also, it lowers the cost of employee recruitment and retention. So, you know, right there, you're, you're hitting on the bottom line. And the other observation that I would say is I think the increased rigor that's being demanded of the reporting will mean that the function, the sustainability function in organisations will shift from very often currently as I said earlier, the CSO reports into the chief marketing officer, which, you know, tells its own story. I think that rigor that's now been demanded means it might, in a lot of organisations, shift to the chief financial Officers organisation, which I think is a good thing, because, once it's there, then you get a twofold or a twofer you get a) more rigor in the reporting, but b) then it shifts to the chief financial officer seeing the value of this, and therefore it might even give it a greater push within the organisation. Agree? Disagree? Am I full of it?

Sandhya Sabapathy: 14:05

I totally agree. I, I, I, I do. And I'm so my team, especially at Entain may be a bit worried about this. We've got, two board level committees. One is the Sustainability and Compliance Committee, and the other one is the Audit Committee. And thanks to CSRD and a lot of the reporting frameworks now having a lot of legal backing. And also catching the eyes of investors quite early on, I think for the first time the audit committee is starting to pay attention and is looking at everything that we're doing. And, I think that that is exactly where we need it to be. We need sustainability reporting to be viewed as just as valuable as financial reporting. I mean, we usually put it in an annual report anyway, or an ESG report, or something that does go out at about the same time so you can get the most amount of eyeballs. So I think that this is good. It's going to be a bit tricky for the first year, because in a lot of cases, some sustainability reporting has obviously progressed, especially the climate side. A lot of it is science backed. If companies have been doing this for quite a bit, it's not just estimates. They're working with primary data. The S bit or the social bit and even maybe some bits of the governance side is sometimes estimate, sometimes hopes and, and I think that there is going to be a bit of push and pull there because you wanna make sure you report everything accurately and this is not as black and white as finance. So from a sustainability standpoint, we have a lot to learn and maybe a lot to get right. And then then from the other side, from maybe the financial reporting side, I think it's for them to, understand how exactly we hold ourselves accountable and we hold the organisation accountable. So I think it's gonna be an interesting learning journey. And it is, I think going to take far more resources than people think the reporting side, which is daunting, especially because, you know, a lot of sustainability teams have got extended teams. They rely on say suppliers, they don't necessarily have massive teams right off the bat. So I think that hopefully. My hope is that this, reporting cycle, which will force us to actually, well, be honest about our targets get a bit closer to the finance teams and honestly follow their rigor when it comes to, target setting as well. We'll get the wider business to understand how much of what work this is and how much this could impact risks and opportunities in the bottom line. Like you said, with the employer brand as well, et cetera. And. On the other side I think that, the best way I always say to get senior people or individuals interested in sustainability, is actually doing some things, right? Seeing it in action. So take them out volunteering or sit them down for a couple of hours and look at climate modeling and they will wanna kill themselves. But they would actually be like, Okay, this is hard work. You guys are doing a lot, Right.

Tom Raftery: 17:12

Right.

Sandhya Sabapathy: 17:12

I think that I think that this is going to be good. It is going to be a bit rough at the start because we're gonna sound like we're speaking different languages,

Tom Raftery: 17:22

Hmm.

Sandhya Sabapathy: 17:22

I think in the end it'll be good. So, I think it's a positive and I think a lot of companies will struggle with this and a lot of companies will get scared as a result. But since it's mandatory, I think from a resource standpoint, especially for large companies, they now don't have a choice. So, I think it's heading in the right direction. Even though, you know, in a, in a year from now, if you talk to me, I'll probably be drowning in numbers and reporting, but, you know, careful what you wish for. We've been asking for this for a while.

Tom Raftery: 17:54

True. True, True. Are there any particular regions or industries that are doing a particularly good job in this space? And if so, are there any lessons that everyone else can take from them?

Sandhya Sabapathy: 18:06

Well, people might fight me on this, but I actually think manufacturing has been doing this for a long period of time and, does get a lot of things right. Unilever might be a common one that people bring up a lot. Their sustainable living plan, which was one of the first kinda full fledged corpus sustainability plans that went out, I think it's probably a decade back now is still a very good blueprint. Now, you could argue that they're not getting every single thing right, but I think the fact that enough people know about what they do and the fact that they're not getting everything right itself is a win. And, it is good that you have a couple of thought leaders in this space that are leading the way that are, being a bit messy about it at certain times, but are still sticking to their guns and, and pushing the dial. And then, you know, Patagonia is a great example as well. It's, you know, I guess what you'd want every single company to end up looking like. And I think what what it teaches us is that all of these systems that we have built internally when it comes to how we view commercial success, how we view well the success of the company in general, is I'm not saying it's made up, but it's something that was created about 20, 30 years back. And, I always say that the MBA class that a lot of the executives graduated from were only focused on profitability and cost cutting. Whereas that's kind of no longer, the case when you look at leaders who are getting training now, and they're they are looking at much more of a holistic approach to how to run a company, because it also just doesn't make sense to run out the resources on this planet or in your particular sector in a finite manner. So I think, there's three generations in the workforce, and there is a bit of push as a result of that, but I think this is good because as I would say, Millennials maybe get more senior and, and, and the Gen Z as well kind of come in and and take on middle management roles, you're going to see an a shift in what leaders view as success. And that I think is the most important change or the most interesting change that I, that I'd like to see because on average when it comes to younger leaders, I think they are a bit more conscious about this and maybe it just might be because of peer pressure around them, it might not be something that they've actually been trained in, but it's something that they can't, not think about. And this is kind of the journey I think a lot of people are going on. But I don't just also want to penalise the older generations or the the executives because we we wouldn't be here if they didn't feel like this was something that needed to be focused on at some point. Maybe weightage it was not priority number one or priority number two. And that's where I guess the next generation needs to push and get it there. But they did, see it was important. So they created the space for this to, to actually exist. So, I think inclusive leadership is going to look very different. It's going to not just be about how you can get the bottom line right. But, you know, look at a triple bottom line. Look at, what your impact looks like as well.

Tom Raftery: 21:24

Okay. And are there any industries or companies that have surprised you with their progress on sustainability? Maybe ones we wouldn't expect?

Sandhya Sabapathy: 21:33

So, some of the companies that have have surprised me are companies that fundamentally maybe Do not have a product that is viewed as servicing the world. Philip Morris, for example. I've been watching their trajectory over the past, maybe about 10 years. And I think that initially I was super skeptical. I just thought this is gonna be a gigantic branding exercise. And they're not going to actually change their fundamental product, but over the past 10 years, I've seen that the amount of risk that they've taken in investing in the transformation of their core product is quite fascinating to see. And also they're not necessarily just doing it because they want to sell more of their product. They're actively looking at different ways to invest in organisations that are operating in the space when it comes to social impact or even green tech. So I think that they're a very interesting case study and they're a difficult case study to talk about sometimes, but if you look at even the, the ESG rating side, they're investor darlings and it's not just because they're, talking about things. They're actually putting huge amounts of money when it comes to the R&D of developing a brand new product that's smoke free. Now, it's always a difficult one in the grand scheme of things because you you could argue that do these industries even need to exist. But these industries are existing and are growing. I'd much rather them at least be at the positive side of being really sustainable and actually thinking about how they're affecting the planet and people more importantly, I guess, for Philip Morris. So I think it's a good case study. I think their theory of change is great. And they have put a sizable chunk of their revenue and profitability into this. So it's I think they are putting money where their mouth is. Now how that's going to shape up the entire sector in the next couple of years. I don't quite know, but I think at least I've moved from a skeptic to okay, this is interesting. And other sectors should be just as bold as them especially when they can actually make more credible changes with less effort. and see that transition is, possible and it's, it's worth the risk or it's worth kinda even rethinking about your core product, if that means it's, it's fundamentally damaging the planet. So I would, I would say Philip Morris is a good example.

Tom Raftery: 25:18

I had no idea. Fantastic. Great. And for people listening who might be outside of the sustainability world professionally, what's the one thing they can do today to nudge their company or community towards more climate conscious practices?

Sandhya Sabapathy: 25:33

So, companies, whether they're small or large, are still groups of people at the end of the day. And I think that a lot of sustainability now is a board level conversation or a next level conversation when thank God it is. It's not where it started. It was a, a small group of people who felt passionately about something in an organisation that kept talking it and that small group of people became a larger group of people, and then the executives paid attention, right? So what I'd encourage people to do is that if there is something that they see their organisation can really change, especially in the sector that they're in they shouldn't think that it's something that we're a corporate organisation, no one's gonna ever listen to me. Let me not make an effort. Let me try and do this outside in some way, shape or form. And let let me just be quiet at work. I think safe spaces, employee resource groups, all of these kind of tools, are where all of this started, and are where a lot of these conversations continue to be disruptive. So what I'd say is that you're not actually unable to influence things in your organisation. I think just like you'd probably bring an idea to your boss or, try and influence something else. Think about this as something you can do as well. And I think there's power in three, right? If you can get three people together in whatever room to, talk about well, sustainability or community building, whatever it may be. I think then the dial starts to shift. So like, start, start thinking about what are the three people in a particular room that have decision making power that you can start influencing to get sustainability on the agenda. So that's probably what I'd like to say. And I also say that you don't have to have a master's degree or a PhD degree in sustainability to actually operate in this space. We are, fundamentally an inclusive sector of professionals. And we want more and more people to get involved. And there's plenty of courses that you can take that are free and upskill yourself. And then if it's something that is a passion, of course, go into it and study more and, and, tool yourself with that. But the barriers for entry aren't as high as people are making it out to be, which I think is a positive. So more and more people should, get involved and understand a bit more about it and see how they can contribute.

Tom Raftery: 27:57

Okay, great. There's a lot of, I would say, negative feeling in the climate space, particularly now and after the the US presidential elections. Do you have any story of hope and progress that you wish everybody knew?

Sandhya Sabapathy: 28:14

So when the US selections and I guess, when I heard the US elections. It was the following day in the UK 'cause I'm based in London. One of the first people I called was one of my professors in New York and and I was saying, well, what are you telling your students right now, because you probably should be telling your students like everywhere because there's, there's so much of anxiety and I, and I, I just kind of feel like we've all of these things we've been building have been crushed overnight. To which I think he said something that made me think about things a bit differently. And he is like, well, have they really been a lot of collective action in this space from multiple governments concurrently? It's always been one particular government does it right? And another government, you know, changes it and things of that sort. I was thinking back to it and is like, yes, government has supported things in some way, shape or form. And of course, especially with like public private partnerships and coalitions, yes, they are involved and there's a lot of infrastructure change that they need to be involved in. But fundamentally. climate has always been by NGOs and professors and scholars and, think tanks. That's where climate change has always been and where it started out. And if regulation has gotten to where it is right now, it was as a result of collective action outside of government. So, just because there is a current change in tide, that doesn't mean that everything that people have worked on is gonna disappear overnight. It is going to maybe get a bit more difficult in some areas. However he felt that the resilience that the community has built and the case studies and honestly, the amount of investment now that is actually going in to climate tech has only steadily increased and will continue to increase because there is a good investor case for it. And maybe it's not exactly where we need it to be, right now. But that doesn't mean that we can, you know, kinda give up. It's it's almost the time where you need to dial up even more. And then after that, over the past couple of, I would say, a month or so here, what I've noticed is that that does seem to be the case. I think that more and more people are getting involved. It's almost acting as a trigger to get people who weren't thinking about it as much to actually be like, well, maybe I need to help. Maybe this is this is something that people have completely not talked about. And and so I think that it, like, with a lot of these things will have a ripple effect and there there are green shoots, the ripple effect as well. On the flip side in the UK, as a result from a leadership standpoint, it looks like the government is stepping up in some way, shape or form. They've got much more ambitious net zero targets and you know, London is quite ambitious. It wants to be net zero by 2030 which is going to be hugely difficult, but hey, if they set the target, then they need to at least work towards it. So I think that if there is a leadership vacuum in one, one area, there will be other countries, that step up. So let's hope that's the case. And and let's hope that, it continues to be this inclusive movement that brings together people from different walks of life, which is my favorite bit about the climate movement. And then we actually continue to get this, pushed day to day am I frustrated? Of course, I think that anyone working in this space is super frustrated, but I don't think it's the time to step back. It's the time to push more, in my opinion.

Tom Raftery: 32:35

And you've been a champion for diversity and sustainability. I mean, you, you, you keep mentioning it here as, as we're we're talking or, or at least referring to it obliquely. How do you think inclusion amplifies impact in tackling environmental challenges?

Sandhya Sabapathy: 32:52

As with a lot of things Climate change is going to fundamentally impact the marginalised more than other communities. And I think this is what we, we keep forgetting. So when we are building in transition action plans and things of this sort, I always believe that a just transition is super important. And a lot of the fossil fuel producing countries are Not in a position to switch immediately into clean energy. And they've got their entire economies depending on it. And these are countries that fundamentally have a long way to go into, you know, building a stable economy. So I think that what's really crucial here is for us to also understand that element. And see, I, I'm not necessarily sure COP is an effective forum to get these big conversations across in the way that it is. I very much still believe in COP. I think that it's not fit for purpose right now. So I think that in, in all of this, it's super important to have a thread of understanding. What is the community or the group of people that are most going to be hit by all of these consequences. And not just talk about the top line all the time. And I think that that's quite concurrent with even boardrooms or making decisions in a corporate standpoint, because I spoke about the power of three. I think that when you have people with diversity of thought and thinking about different things, and they could be people from diverse backgrounds, but it could also be be people with diverse experiences coming in and having these conversations. The solutions that you come up with are far more resilient and far more inclusive and far more effective, honestly. So I'm a big believer it's super important to have different voices on the table. And some people might argue that having too many voices means that decisions don't get made and decisions get delayed. But the problem that they're talking about isn't the, the actual boardroom. It's the governance of decision making. It's, the emphasis on having a clear process. It's not having different opinions in the room that's actually slowing things down. It's about not having a very clear process to get those decisions out. So, I know that was a bit of a broad spread of things, but my view is that you need to be an exceptionally good listener when it comes to solving a problem like climate change. It's something that affects so many people and it affects the marginalised the most. So, not listening to their perspective makes you conclude or gets decisions that fundamentally only affect the day-to-day lives of people who live in first world countries or don't immediately think about where they're going to get their next meal from if there is a flood. Right. So I think that it's putting these things in perspective is super important and hearing all of these perspectives is super important. And and I think in a lot of ways, it builds some humility in these processes as well. And if you think about things in different manner, maybe, from this, I mean, I, I guess it's not just a humanity standpoint. Maybe you get, you build these decisions, you build these solutions to be something that's fundamentally going to help everyone, not just, the people who think it's the right thing to do, but in the grand scheme of things, won't get affected by it in the near term.

Tom Raftery: 36:35

Are there any books or films or documentaries that you found particularly inspiring when thinking about sustainability or leadership?

Sandhya Sabapathy: 36:43

Ooh, there's so many, there's so many of them. I think, I wouldn't even know where to start. Well, first people should listen to your podcast. So that's, that's, that's that's something, you know, quick plug on, on the podcast that we're in.

Tom Raftery: 36:57

Thank you.

Sandhya Sabapathy: 36:58

So I'm trying to think of one that I actually have read recently that has super, super inspired me. So, what I've found over the past couple of weeks is reading about travels. Peoples traveling across the world. And these are just essays, so they've, they've not been anything in particular and it's, there is not one that's kind of coming to mind that's with a particular case. But the reason why I think I like these travel essays is because travel essays help people process their relationship to the planet differently. And now, I think it's more about jumping on a plane and going to a different country and then maybe checking out a couple of restaurants and looking at some sites and then coming back. But way back then, like in in the thirties and the forties, people were traveling extremely differently. So they were, they were traveling to hike. They were traveling to be in nature. They were, on boats for long periods of time. And, what I think I've got from all of that is that we're not very connected to nature. We're not really, we don't even know where our food comes from. Right. So I, and I think that that is, the, is probably one of the biggest issues for the current way of life, especially if you live in a city is there can be weeks where you actually don't actively go to a park or, see some form of nature around you. And I think it's disorienting. And, And I was, I was born, raised in cities, right? So I think that the reason why a lot of people maybe aren't quite conscious about climate change or understand where the big defects lie in, in us not being able to help the planet regenerate is that we're so far away and disconnected from it. Everyone's looking at their phones. Everyone's like traveling for the sake of taking pictures. And I think that, yeah, there, there needs to be. something that's actually quite, basic that needs to change as to how people approach being in green spaces and be much more conscious about when they are traveling, not just traveling for the sake of it, but traveling in a way that reconnects them back to nature. Patrick Firmer. There you go. Remember the name now. That's who I was, was reading about recently. And he's this war veteran from the thirties that traveled the world and is one of those like incredible people that you're just kind of makes you feel like your life is not really as full as it should be. And I think the way he describes nature it's like he's talking about a friend. And I think that I don't know that many people, even people who work in the climate space who do that. Right. So, yeah, I think we we just need to get a bit more reconnected. And I don't know the answer to that. So it's something that I guess I I have to get on a journey on myself and not just have kind of flowers, at home.

Tom Raftery: 40:08

Ok left field question. If you could have any person or character alive or dead, real or fictional as a spokesperson for corporate sustainability or the climate movement, who would it be and why?

Sandhya Sabapathy: 40:24

Ooh. Well, I think Mary Curie has been a huge inspiration to me. And you know, she's, she is an inspiration to many, I guess, especially if you're a scientist. But I think what she, got right was not just that she was a brilliant scientist. She is she was, sorry, but I think she was extremely good at being disruptive and being in rooms surrounded by people who were not like her. And she was able to get them to think about science differently, think about people differently, think about families differently. Because she was a big believer in having a well-balanced life on top of being, an exceptional pioneering scientist. And I think it's getting difficult right now. It's getting difficult women to talk about balance. I see a little bit of cognitive dissonance when senior women are like spouting out about work-life balance, whereas like, I know that we've both been in a meeting until midnight the previous night. So I, I think that there's a lot of space that still aren't talking about some of the basics when it comes to not just gender equality, but just minorities in general. And what, I think she got right was that she was able to well, get a very insular community of people to think about science differently. And yeah, I think she'd be quite inspirational. I think she'd maybe come in and and tell some of these senior people to think things differently, which is nice. So I think she'd be nice. I think she'd be great in the climate movement as well. There there are plenty of women who do it already, who are alive right now as

Tom Raftery: 42:03

Sure. Sure.

Sandhya Sabapathy: 42:04

But yeah, she's, she's one of those, trailblazers that come to mind.

Tom Raftery: 42:09

Fantastic. We're coming towards the end of the podcast now, Sandhya. Is there any question that I didn't ask that you wish I did or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to think about?

Sandhya Sabapathy: 42:22

This was a great chat. This definitely brightened my morning. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I think I've been saying this across the entire podcast, but I think, you know, there is power in the individual as well, is all I have to say. Don't. feel like you are being very policed when it comes to the climate movement, like, Oh, I need to figure out if I'm using plastic straws or not. Sometimes there was, there was so much of anxiety that you just get kinda stuck and paralyzed in small decisions and you should just just get get frustrated with yourself. I think when it comes to the climate movement in general, doing helps, moving helps, talking to people helps, being active helps. So, that's kind of what I would, say at at whatever level of influence you have, whether you are a young person in the school or you're a board member or you head up a charity, whatever it may be Um, or you run a country, your sphere of influence is much bigger than you realise in climate. Yeah, that's probably what I would like to maybe close with.

Tom Raftery: 43:26

Nice. Fantastic. Great. Sandhya, that's been fascinating. If people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed in the podcast today, where would you have me direct them?

Sandhya Sabapathy: 43:37

So I'm quite active on both LinkedIn and Instagram and my handle is Sandhya Sabapathy. I'm also building a community of people with diverse perspectives. So it's a social venture that I have on the site called Kaleidoscope. And yes, if you find me, you'll find all of the links to Kaleidoscope as well. But. If you're looking just for Kaleidoscope, it's also on LinkedIn, and Instagram at @ Kaleidoscope.

Tom Raftery: 44:03

Great. Sandhya, that's been amazing. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today.

Sandhya Sabapathy: 44:07

Thank you so much for having me, Tom. Have a great day.

Tom Raftery: 44:11

Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about the Climate Confident podcast, feel free to drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please don't forget to click follow on it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.